How To Be a Better Leader for Better Sales

Speaker 1: Welcome to the Process Breakdown Podcast, where we talk about streamlining and scaling operations of your company, getting rid of bottlenecks, and giving your employees all the information they need to be successful at their jobs. Now let’s get started with the show.

Jeremy Weisz: Dr. Jeremy Weisz here, host of the Process Breakdown Podcast, where we talk about streamlining and scaling operations of your company and getting rid of bottlenecks and giving your staff everything they need to be successful at their job. Past guests include David Allen of Getting Things Done, Michael Gerber of the E-Myth, and many, many more. I’m excited to introduce you to today’s guest, Martin Hunter, in a second. Before I do this episode is brought to you by SweetProcess. So Martin, you may be able to relate to this. Have you had team members or anyone ask you the same questions over and over? And it’s maybe the 10th time you spent explaining it. There is a better way and the solution, and SweetProcess is actually a software that makes it drop dead easy to train and onboard new staff and save time with existing staff. And not only when I was talking to Owen, the founder, Martin, not only do universities, banks, hospital, software companies use it, but first responder government agencies use them in life or death situations to run their operations.

Jeremy Weisz: And you have had some really interesting background in some of those type of companies, it sounds like, nuclear companies, and we’re going to get into that, but people use SweetProcess to document all the repetitive tasks that eat up your precious time so you can focus on growing your team and empowering them. You could sign up for a free 14 day trial, no credit card required. SweetProcess.com, check it out. Sweet like candy, S-W-E-E-T, process.com. I am excited to introduce you to today’s guest, Martin Hunter, he’s principal at [Urgeo 00:01:59], and his company assists organizations to make sure they’re well run. And he helps translate strategy into frontline operations. So the question is always for me, Martin, and other people, is your leadership style impeding or helping productivity? And Urgeo provides fractional COO and CEOs to organizations to avoid roadblocks, ensure the company is on the right strategic and operational track so they can grow.And you help companies from SAS to CPG, to large international corporations all over the map. So Martin, thanks for joining me.

Martin Hunter: Thank you very much, Jeremy. I appreciate being here.

Jeremy Weisz: I want to dig into, companies are probably like, “Okay, this is super interesting. How do I implement a service like yours?” Okay? Because everyone needs another set of eyes on something. Okay? No matter what people we have in place, we always need a set of eyes. Especially what I love about what you do, Martin, is you have seen many different types of companies. So you bring a unique perspective. You bring kind of the collective knowledge of all of those companies into an organization. So you could see things quicker, faster, easier than most people, because they’ve only maybe experienced their own company. So maybe we’ll talk about a couple industries and why they engaged with you and then what you saw going in, and then what happened on the other side. So I figured maybe we start with startups. There are a lot of SAS companies out there that are interested. So let’s start with SAS. Think of a SAS company you work with. What were the challenges or things they were coming to you with first?

Martin Hunter: So great creative people, right? They are computer advocates. They do all of the system-wise. And so they’re super intelligent. And what I mean by intelligent, book smarts, programming, things that I don’t fathom understanding whatsoever. The issue then has become, “Well, what kind of leadership skills do you have?” So you’ve got this great idea. Well, how do you monetize your idea, first of all? And then once you start monetizing, they go, “Okay, well I need a person to do this. I need a person to do that.” We do a functional accountability. You can’t do everything by yourself. So how do you hire the people that you trust? Now, what does that do? I mean, they’ll go into their inner circle, which is just computer programs. So then you’re looking at computer programmers telling other computer programmers, and then they get really caught up into the details or systems.

Martin Hunter: So then we don’t have true operational leadership behaviors. How do you do feedback, right? Context, action, result. How do you give guidance feedback? Did not say positive or negative. How do you encourage people to do that? So the human side, hence the behavioral side of things is very measurable, but they don’t tackle that one. So that is often the number one thing. I was like, “Hey Martin, I don’t know how to do this.” Right? “You’re so charismatic Martin, you get people to do whatever you want.” I say, “That’s because I show them what’s beneficial to them. I don’t tell them, I ask them what to do.” So the difference of being a consultant versus a fractional executive is I inject myself into the organization. I don’t just sit on the sideline saying, “Hey, this is what you should be doing.” I actually grab the ball and run with them.

Martin Hunter: And like you mentioned, I’ve also got an arsenal of service providers behind me. You need a virtual assistant? I got it. You need a bookkeeper? I got it. We need to tackle HR? Or here’s a software that does HR, but hey, here’s a software specialist or certain HR specialist that will be like me on a fractional basis to be able to really streamline the operation. So that’s kind of the first and the most common situation, that they’re working out of an office, a shared office. We need to create systems and behaviors to really line up and creating that singularity of purpose that you’ll see in everything that I kind of do and say.

Jeremy Weisz: Yeah. And you don’t have to name names of a SAS company. I’m thinking, where are they at? How many staff do they have? And like you mentioned, are they in a small office, big office? What does their kind of company structure look like? I mean, I’m sure it varies across the board, but what would be a common example of where they’re at as a company?

Martin Hunter: High on the technical. So the one that I’m thinking about has gone up and really done well on the emergency response side of things. I don’t want to divulge that one specifically. They’ve got clients that we’ll probably want them to stay quiet, but anyway, and not say quiet, sorry, I should say that divulging a name might not be beneficial for them anyways. They’ve gone from a two man show to three man show, and then growing their sales team in the area. So they’re oftentimes growing the sales team on the technical side when they have to grow the sales team and the service side.

Martin Hunter: So let’s sell the service and not the software and say, “Okay, well, how do we improve it?” If you take a SweetProcess, for example, how do we sell process? Well, you have to talk to process oriented people. You don’t necessarily have to talk to technicians or SAS technicians. So in growing the company, we went from maybe six to 25, but also growing the revenue to be able to match that as well. So how do you grow the revenue through investments? So here’s another situation where you have a lot of angel investors.

Jeremy Weisz: So you have a saying… Go ahead.

Martin Hunter: Oh yeah. Growing to 26 and then some more. So I have not worked with them for the past year, but they’ve continued some. So we’ve set them on the path to success and really having an HR, a people strategy that matches the growth revenue as well with looking at investors at different time, right? Some angel investments or some VCs, a lot of SAS will aim right for the fence and say, “Well, I want an IPO.” And too many times, they’re really disappointed. They come out with their pockets empty instead of having a compounded strategy of building that.

Jeremy Weisz: So in that situation, growing the very quickly, when you came in, what were some of the things that you brought in, team member wise, and then what did you see going on to improve?

Martin Hunter: The biggest thing that I have found is nobody does any planning. So when you look at continuous improvement, you look a five step process, right? So some people take it for, but I’d take it one step further as the research is key component, right? So you do the research, you do the planning, and those two are critical to being able to do properly, right? So then you do, and then you track, and then you adjust. Too many organizations and leaders go from doing to adjusting without doing the research planning and tracking, and to be able to do a good gap analysis and measure velocity, you need to be able to track. You can say, “Okay, let’s blank out the speedometer on your car,” and you go, “Let me guess how fast I’m going,” right? Or if you’re not planning ahead, black out your entire windshield and try driving by just looking through your rear view year.

Martin Hunter: So a lot of people are running their business like that. And so having a good system and the right behaviors in place with core values and functional accountability sets that in place. And those are simple things to do right at the onset. And it kind of go, “Oh wow.” And you’re like, “Well, you’re a computer programmer. You do coding. You do stuff that is way above my ability, but simple task in regards to planning and looking at the future in regards to filling in your calendar? Just when are you going to do what?” Simple things.

Jeremy Weisz: When you got feedback from that SAS company, after working with them, what did you hear from them that was game changing for them? And it may be normal for you, right? Because this is sort of skill set. So you’re like, “That wasn’t a big of a deal.” Oftentimes our superpower to us is no big deal, but what was the feedback you were getting from them? “When you told us this one or two things, this was game-changing for our business.”

Martin Hunter: Making the time and really abiding by your calendar and making the time to say, “Well, I’m going to plan for an hour.” And it starts with them. So having those leadership behaviors of self-accountability is critical, and not getting caught up into the day to day operations. When you have a good strategy and a good path forward, you need time to be able to do that. So when you take away in being proactive, instead of reactive, then the whole world kind of goes upside down on itself and changes a lot of things for them.

Jeremy Weisz: So you’re like, “Okay, set leadership time aside.” Is that on a weekly basis? Every other week? Get granular with me for a second. Are you like, “Okay, we’re scheduling an every week two our leadership meeting.” What does it look like?

Martin Hunter: Yeah. Usually a senior leadership team or leadership team meeting, depending on the frequency of the change management program you’ve got can go from week to week, or biweekly is usually the time that it gives everybody the time to do their homework because a meeting should only be there to “EOS,” to IDS, identify, discuss, and solve, right? And then you go away and then do the work. Too many times, the work happens just the day before the meeting, during the meeting, and the day after the meeting, and then nothing gets solved.

Jeremy Weisz: It’s like a test. We only studied the day before.

Martin Hunter: That’s right. Where, what we do is, is through systematization, is to repeat the process of, eat the frog first, right? Get the hardest things done first. And then you feel accomplished. And that level of accomplishment brings morale. Morale improves innovation. Innovation improves the opportunity to sell. And therefore your gross revenue, just by doing a simple task of taking the time to research and thinking about what you want to.

Jeremy Weisz: Yeah. Martin, I’m sure you have a lot of opinions on this. What are the biggest mistakes people make when they’re running a leadership meeting? Because I could see if it’s run right, it’s super valuable. And if it’s run wrong, everyone just dreads it.

Martin Hunter: A good speakers should only speak last. A good leader, sorry, should always speak last. So take the notes. Let everybody go through it. Wait. Ask questions. Never tell. Always ask. You empower so that the job of a leader is to facilitate the work and elevate its people. So you facilitate the work by removing barriers. Well, you can’t tell people what their barriers are. You have to really, truly listen to what their barriers are. And once that’s done, your job is to remove them either through authority or financial means, right? And then the last one is, nine times out of 10, they can solve their own problems by asking the questions. And they go, “Oh, when I think of that?” Well, because you didn’t ask the question. And oftentimes just voicing that question, and then rhetorically giving it back. “Well, what should you do?” And the subject matter expert really is the person asking the question, looking at you. And too many times, the leader wants to be the subject matter expert and should not.

Jeremy Weisz: Got it. So jumping in and trying to solve everyone’s problems, then you become the bottleneck.

Martin Hunter: Yeah. And then so why [crosstalk 00:14:03].

Jeremy Weisz: And you’re not empowering them.

Martin Hunter: Exactly. And then, so why are you paying all these people if you’re doing it yourself? So you become the roadblock.

Jeremy Weisz: Love it. Let’s talk about CPG. You help a number of CPG companies, Alpha Foods being one of them. First of all, talk about what Alpha Foods does and what were some of the things you had to come in, and what were some of the breakthroughs from there?

Martin Hunter: CPG is a plant-based protein company. They do a lot of handheld. So we’re talking about burritos, pizzas, burgers, crumbles, and the recipes are on part. Their chicken nugget. The food is amazing, the scientists, and then the culinary chefs that put this together is amazing. This is a US-based company that’s expanding. They’ve been up for five years.

Jeremy Weisz: I want to try it.

Martin Hunter: Oh yeah. You have to. You know what, Jeremy, give me your email address.

Jeremy Weisz: I’m into plant-based food. So Alpha Foods, where can people check it out?

Martin Hunter: AlphaFoods.com.

Jeremy Weisz: Okay.

Martin Hunter: I will send you, there is a direct to consumer launch tomorrow.

Jeremy Weisz: Awesome.

Martin Hunter: And Jeremy, you know what? For you, I’ll send you a free bundle at home. All right?

Jeremy Weisz: I will spread the word on it. What’s your favorite thing that you’ve tried from them?

Martin Hunter: We just started off a new breakfast line, which will not be out until January, but my favorite is two things. The chicken nuggets are just absolutely amazing. And then the stakeless ranchero. It’s a burrito, and Oh my God.

Jeremy Weisz: Stakeless. Who knew that was going to be in our vocabulary?

Martin Hunter: I know. Right? Stateless ranchero is right on the money. And then I’ll do some few shout outs. If you guys are on LinkedIn, you can look at Karen or Lance May culinary, and we’ve got a food scientist, Karen, and then Lance is the culinary chef that puts all that together. I mean, there’s a whole team. I’ll talk more about it, but we’re at 31 now going on 40. We’ve outgrown space from somebody’s apartment to a condo to now a bigger office. And then we just can’t keep up because it’s an explosive growth industry.

Jeremy Weisz: It’s huge. Yeah.

Martin Hunter: And then COVID brought on this, the need for people to, I shouldn’t say isolate, but lock down. So freezer purchases of plant-based food just grow exponentially. So now the sales team was like, “Okay, this is easy.” Well, it’s not so easy, guys. You’re just reaping the benefit of this, the world’s kind of changing and embracing this plant.

Jeremy Weisz: How did they find you?

Martin Hunter: Oh my goodness. Referral. Just through referral, they found me. And one of the big things was we’ve got two co-founders and one’s in Canada, one’s in US. both of them have brought so much energy and quality, but now is really time to say, “Okay, how do we fine tune that singularity of purpose to be able to define what’s best for Alpha, not what’s best for one co-founder or the other founder, it’s really what’s best for Alpha?” And when you’re living in the moment so many times, it’s hard for them to see it, right? So by really extrapolating, what’s the core value? What are the brand promises that we’re delivering, revisiting who we are as an organization? So that we can grow for it. And Alpha is just amazing. And again, growing through kind of creating, going from a startup to a corporation is increasing systems, HR, how are we hiring? What’s our strategy? What’s the investments that we need to be able to fulfill those gross revenue projections?

Jeremy Weisz: What are some of the breakthroughs? You come in, you’re an outside perspective, they’re used to running the company. What were some of the things that you saw immediately that would move the needle for them?

Martin Hunter: The span of control, one to many. We had two guys going at it and there was 16 people reporting to them. And so I was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a second.” Sales marketing. Every company does three things, sell the product, make the product, get paid for the product. That’s as simple as that. Right? You add leadership on top of it. So as functionally creating those areas of performance so that we’d got a sales team. Now we’ve got a sales team, and then a marketing. We’ve got production, operations, logistics, everything was scattered. And so we’ve created really those functional accountabilities to be able to streamline and really push forward so that when any investor looks at it, and you go, “Wow,” because ultimately the question will be asked of where this is going, right? It’s just too hot for people not to look at it. And then potentially you go public as well. So those are the questions that always are in the back of the mind of any CEO or founder, right?

Jeremy Weisz: Yeah. I mean, the organization always starts. Let’s just, we have this amazing passion for the software or this product and let’s just go out and sell it. And then there’s no infrastructure, I imagine. And then you’re like, “No, you need the sales and marketing, you need the production, and you need the finance and actually putting structure into the company.” So you saw that, you put the structure in the company, you bring on people to help with the structure as well.

Martin Hunter: Correct. And we have critical conversations, right? Like I said before, from the EOS model of identify, discuss, and solve, right. For the longest time I had one hour, one topic. So we’d set leadership meetings of one hour, one topic. So what is the one topic that we really want to hash out? Come out at the end of it with a good action plan for, right? There’s too many meetings. I go, “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And then all of a sudden you go in and go, “What was the purpose of this meeting and why?” So that’s the other thing that I’ve done is create a really purposeful, especially with Zoom, right? With all of this decentralized workforce, Zoom in fatigue gets in. So you have to manage people’s health and safety as well. Even if CPG health and safety, especially with mental fatigue, repeating, rinse, repeat, that’s just, and I mean, for our US friends, the election as well, have caused some stress.

Martin Hunter: And so it’s important to manage that as well through saying, “Hey, let’s talk about this. Let’s actually table it. And let’s talk about it and ask how people are feeling,” right?

Jeremy Weisz: Yeah, no, I like the one hour, one topic. And Martin, you’re working with CEOs and founders, and sometimes the founders that need to put these pieces in place. What’s common situation? Do you get pushback from people who, they’re used to having all the controls and relinquishing some of the controls? And if so, how do you get them to just give the reigns to someone else and the other people kind of run the pieces they should be running? You run into that.

Martin Hunter: Yeah, absolutely. I always call upon a radio station called WIFM, which is, “What’s in it for me?” So why are you doing this? What’s the purpose? Giving up control is the biggest topic. A lot of people want to do it, just don’t know how to do it. And the freedom that comes from it, the FOMO, fear of missing out,

Jeremy Weisz: Well, they’re so used to doing it. And also probably they feel like, “Well, no one’s going to do it as good as me,” also.

Martin Hunter: Correct. But then are you facilitating and elevating? So what you’re doing is inhibiting your ability to build gross revenue, because are you going to go faster if you put 12 rowers or if you row by yourself? Well, of course I’m going to go faster if there’s 12 rowers. So what are you doing? Are you rowing or are you standing on the bow of the ship going, “That way,” right? Oh, well that’s easy. That’s a good analogy, but then, okay. So then do it.

Jeremy Weisz: Easier said than done sometimes, right?

Martin Hunter: Absolutely. And so that’s where the mentorship, as a fractional CEO or COO, often times I’ll execute, right? So I’ll jump in. And another component is a good change agent, but the third component is that mentorship, right? So if I take Alpha, we’ve got two guys that have been through different paths. And so right now, Cole, the CEO, is learning as well. So he’s a great guy, doing great. And he needs a little bit of my gray hairs in regards to coaching and mentorship on certain leadership fronts that he takes very well. But that’s for everybody. I mean, for me, if I went into something that I wasn’t familiar with, I definitely would want coaching and mentorship. I’m about to write a book, so I need a coach and a mentor to help me write my book as well. So I’d be a fool to think that I know everything.

Jeremy Weisz: Do you have the title of the book yet or no?

Martin Hunter: I think the title will actually be, “I don’t know.”

Jeremy Weisz: Okay. I wrote down something, actually. I didn’t know you had a book coming out, but I keep writing down as we’re talking breakthroughs. I feel like you probably provide a lot of breakthroughs for people. So I don’t know. I think in book titles for some reason. So when it comes out, you’ll have to let us know and we’ll have to share it. So we talk about SAS, we talk about CBG, and it’s really similar type of, you bring the expertise, you bring a team, and a certain structure. So I wanted to talk about, you talk a lot about this too. Creating singularity of purpose between behaviors and systems. So just explain what that means.

Martin Hunter: For every business process, you create a flow chart. And in that flow chart, there are certain activities that feed the movement of three things. Information, product, or money, right? So either we have to share or move information from one place or another, either we move product down the line to create this product or to ship it somewhere. And then last one is we exchange money. We have to move money to pay certain things down the line. And so it circles up, right?

Martin Hunter: So singularity of purpose is specifically meant for that. How do we align all the systems that we have to facilitate that? But imagine somebody, if I gave somebody who’s never been in the woods before, a chainsaw. Now, chance I will cut a tree a lot faster than an ax or a chainsaw. But if they’ve never used it, it’s going to go barely impossible for them to do it. They don’t know how to prime it. They don’t know how to fill it. They don’t know that it has to have oil and sharpened, and ultimately could potentially kill themself if they get far enough and the tree falls back on them. So you have to have the right behaviors to be able to operate that system in that business process. So making sure that the people have the right attitude, skill, and knowledge to be able to manipulate the system to create that information. Does that make sense?

Jeremy Weisz: Yep, totally. And first of all, Martin, I want to thank you. I have one last question. Okay? But I want to thank you. I want to tell people to check out Urgeo.ca. U-R-G-E-O.ca. And before I ask the last question, what else have we not talked about with what you do as a company that will be beneficial for people to know about?

Martin Hunter: That is a solid question. Always start with the end in mind and don’t be afraid. And even though we have a plan, so you’ve done the research, you’ve done the planning, you’re doing your tracking, you’re adjusting. The critical thing is to realize that the world does not revolve around you. And COVID was a great demonstration of people who are fixed mindsets and flexible mindsets saying if you, as a human being, regardless of color, race, religion, sex, whatever, if you focus on, what is the best for me, my family, and my community? In that order, you will always come out a winner. With your company as an individual, as a family, those values transcend business, borders, the world.

Martin Hunter: So when you say, “Here’s where I want to be, and how do I act on a day to day basis to be able to achieve that?” What you do at home is the same thing as you do in the business, no different. Everybody has got the ultimate goal of prosperity, meaning that you create profit in a sustainable fashion that equals prosperity. Now, Jeremy, you do that. I do that. We work from Monday to Friday so that we can have a weekend off. We work a little bit harder sometimes so that we can have two weeks off. That’s a prosperous lifestyle. Businesses are the same way. It’s not about selling your business as fast as you can. It’s about creating a prosperous environment for yourself, your family, and the people that you employ. No different than what you do at home or at work.

Jeremy Weisz: Love it. So last question, Martin, and people, check out Urgeo.ca, check out SweetProcess, check out more episodes of the podcast. You have a very interesting, Martin, you’re like, “What is Jeremy going to ask me?” You have a very interesting background for people who don’t know you. Okay? Nine years in the Canadian Armed Forces, you went on and worked in nuclear, biological chemicals, radiological companies. Very interesting. So I want you to share something from the Canadian Armed Forces days, and maybe it’s something, one of your favorite stories from the Canadian Armed Forces days. And I’m sure it relates to something in leadership and what you’re doing now. When you think back to those days, what’s a story that comes to mind?

Martin Hunter: So yesterday was Armistice Day, was Remembrance Day for Canada. So for me, it always jolts back memories and tears. And as you can hear my voice crackling, being able to attend the ceremony is a big thing for me, but with COVID, we weren’t allowed. So for those who can’t see it, I’m putting up a little Canadian Armed Forces, the principles of leadership that I keep. I’ve now been out of the army longer than I’ve been in the army. And I still keep this on my desk everywhere I carry it. And quickly it says, “Achieve professional competency. Appreciate your own strengths and limitation, and pursue self-improvement. Seek and accept responsibility. Lead by example. Make sure that the followers know your meaning and intent, then lead them to the accomplishment of their mission. Know your soldiers and promote their welfare. Develop the leadership potential of your followers. Make sound and timely decisions. Train your soldiers as team as they employ them up to their capabilities, and keep your followers informed of the mission, the changing situation, and the overall picture.”

Martin Hunter: Now this was printed 20 plus years ago. Now tell me this is not applicable today. Leadership is not time sensitive. And I keep this purposefully because I’m saying this is more than 20 years ago. I got this when I went from Trooper to Corporal. So this is something that I have to say thank you to the army, to National Defense, because this has stayed with me and made me who I am today.

Jeremy Weisz: Martin, thank you. And I think you have your subhead of your book. 17 steps of leadership that you can put into your company that come from the Canadian Armed Forces. But I want to be the first one to thank you. Check out Urgeo.ca. Thanks again.

Martin Hunter: Thank you very much, Jeremy.

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